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EBurch
USA
138 Posts |
 Posted - 04/04/2005 : 13:22:51
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When we look at the benefits of a joint NAR/TRA club I think there are a number of benefits that we do not currently offer by being a NAR only club. The first is certifications. If a Tripoli member wants to certify L1 or L2 they must travel to Phoenix because there are no TRA prefectures in Southern Arizona. Right now at SARA we can offer certifications in NAR only and while those certifications are recognized at a TRA launch you must be a member of NAR to be certified at a SARA launch. There are many who will not spend the money to belong to both NAR and TRA. I will not get into the politics of the two different organizations suffice it to say there are those who will never join Triploi and there are those who will never join NAR.
Second, we could offer junior memberships through Tripoli. Junior members of Tripoli can certify with level F and G motors. This is intended to keep interest in rocketry when teenagers usually transfer there interest to girls and cars. I will not argue the benefits of rocketry over girls and cars but it does keep the youth interested in rocketry when they have done all they wish to do with motors E and smaller.
All lot has been said about the EX or experimental part of Tripoli membership. Tripoli, unlike NAR does allow for the development of experimental motors by individuals level 2 or above under very specific guidelines. The more exotic (and risky) fuels like LOX\H2 are specifically prohibited and most of the work is done with either Ammonium Perchlorate/Aluminum or Potassium Nitrate/Sorbitol motors. The major advantage of EX is that we would be able to offer Colleges and Universities an additional avenue to enjoy amateur rocketry and I believe more would be inclined to participate if EX was an option. If you look online at some of the major projects launched by Universities they involved all aspects of engineering including making the motor. I have talked to the few in the club that are interested in EX and if SARA became a joint club you would probably see 3 to 4 EX launches a year and the location could but probably would not be TIMPA because of the low ceiling. We are looking into airspace to the Southeast that would serve as a location for EX and would satisfy the requirement that commercial and EX be separate activities.
Finally, members have indicated that it might be better to start a TRA prefecture as a separate entity. I believe that a joint club would be a more effective use of resources, both material and intellectual, and have seen it work at launches such as SSS in Phoenix. I have talked to Paul Holmes in Phoenix about the issues they have seen being a joint club and there were not any that he could think of that were significant. Their launches are still dominated by hobby level rockets, families attend events more then we have at SARA and they have only a few EX events a year. Insurance has not been an issue since the TRA insurance sits on top of all the insurance unlike NAR that sits under your homeowners policy.
Eric Burch
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jdennis
47 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2005 : 13:53:25
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I agree with Eric. I believe that we should examine the pro's and con's of duel affiliation. NAR has been a good friend to SARA, but their are aspects of rocketry not served by NAR that would be interesting to pursue.
Jacob and I travel extensively to many large regional and national launches. We have been intrigued by the unexplored possibilities. It is clear to us that our local club only scratches the surface of the hobby.
I won't be the first in line to make my own motors, but I'll sure be there to watch and learn. One thing is for sure, if we're too afraid, intimidated or comfortable to investigate new possibilities, we won't know what we're missing.
Jay Dennis |
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Steve L.
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2005 : 16:55:19
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1) Eric mentions the benefits of Tripoli insurance versus NAR insurance. Tripoli insurance does not benefit non-Tripoli members (look at the Tripoli web page at www.tripoli.org). The Tripoli versus NAR condition creates a quandary. Who pays if an accident happens at a launch? If it is a NAR hosted launch the NAR will cover the participants and spectators, whether or not they are NAR members. Tripoli insurance is not extended to a NAR member; Tripoli insurance only covers its members. Youths who fly rockets at a Tripoli sponsored launch are not insured under the Tripoli insurance. A joint operation will force the club to declare "who" is sponsoring the launch. Not necessarily a big problem except there have been operational differences between the NAR and Tripoli, e.g Kosdon rocket motors remaining certified by the NAR and decertified by Tripoli. Maintaining separate sections will remove any ambiguity over who is sponsoring the launch and whose insurance is in force.
2) The NAR (and SARA) fully support certifications to all 3 levels. Our field limitations preclude level 3 certifications regardless of the sponsoring organization. The certification requirements, while not identical, are compatible. So, the question is, if you want to high power certify, why not join the NAR. Please explain what Tripoli offers versus the NAR for an individual seeking high power certification.
I will offer my suspicion that Tripoli is perceived as a high power organization and the NAR is not. That is why some individuals will never join the NAR. The Tripoli publications do not address model rocketry except as an occasional picture or sidebar in an article. If SARA is a joint NAR/Tripoli chapter, then will model rocketry suffer? The implied answer is that SARA needs to join with another organization that supports high power to grow our section and the hobby. SARA is successful because it can attract a cross section of the hobby's participants. SARA is successful because the main audience, like it or not, is the model rocketeer. Look at our efforts in build sessions, classroom talks, and public displays. We can reach several hundred people or more a year. Even if our audience does not join the NAR or Tripoli we get good will on the street and, who knows, new members down the road.
3) The NAR offers Level 1 certification for 16 through 18 year olds that allows them to fly "H" and "I" motors. What's is the advantage to join Tripoli for "F" and "G" motors?
4) Experimental rocketry is contrary to the NAR's safety code. The NAR insurance is predicated on following that safety code. Keeping the organizations separate provides a barrier, maybe thin but still distinct, relative to SARA's participation in EX. It is suggested that adding EX would allow us to participate with universities and colleges. First, look how many SARA members participate in outreach at this time; it's about a half dozen. Of that half dozen, how many have the background to talk EX at a college or university? Probably zero to one. Finally, what's the benefit to SARA? New members? I doubt it. We've fielded inquires from SEDS (at the U of A) for years. They ask a couple of questions, get answers, and disappear. The gain to SARA is zero.
5) A joint NAR/Tripoli section will incur additional costs. Right now, SARA needs to pay only the NAR for its section fees and certificates of insurance (naming the city and TIMPA as insured). We will have additional costs, e.g. fees to Tripoli for creating the prefecture ($100.00 per year; look at the Tripoli web site).
A joint section has no benefits for SARA and will create issues regarding insurance and cost. There's no problem, if the Tripoli members wish, in creating their own self-sufficient prefecture. Sharing of equipment is certainly reasonable. I think that the point for a joint section is financial for SARA to subsidize a local Tripoli prefecture.
Stephen Lubliner
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Sahuaro2
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2005 : 18:52:43
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I do know that Eric has researched this and talked to people in Phoenix about this. His proposal comes with good research.
As most of you know I launch in Phoenix regularly and try to attend SARA's launch every other month. I recently received my Level 3. In August I will not renew my membership with NAR because I've transferred my status to Tripoli due to EX and the insurance Tripoli has to offer.
I've been attending EX launches and my plan now is to move slowly in that direction. As my knowledge base grows I well be moving away from certified motors and going to EX exclusively.
Having a joint effort in Tucson would be something I would greatly support.
Larry Foster
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JacobD
45 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2005 : 22:27:50
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Along with Eric and Larry, I am in support of a joint effort at SARA.
I have seen absolutely no problem at any of the Tripoli launches I have attended. In all cases that experimental motors were involved safety has never been compromised, and in fact EX people have been some of the more safety conscious people I have met. I am fascinated by the possibilities of experimental motors. This aspect of the hobby can only offer those builders that are no longer challenged by the building of a rocket a chance to continue to have fun, much as helicopter recovery and duration events have for NAR members. From talking with one of my friends from California, who flies with ROC (Rocketry Organization of California) I have heard no problems about insurance. This club is probably my favorite of all of the many I have flown with. ROC really reaches out to the kids and small rocket flyers and even makes the big stuff accessible to them. Any questions about making the insurance work out can be directed to the president of ROC, Greg Lawson.
As I near my 18th birthday I am faced with a choice, do I certify with NAR or Tripoli, and I am leaning towards Tripoli. As Larry said the possibilities for EX later on are very appealing, and frankly Tripoli is to me a more fun organization, with possibilities that do not end at model rocket competition. Tripoli has given the rocketry community a challenge to build to the extremes, while still supporting the hobby end of rocketry.
I believe with events such as the anniversary launch we proved that SARA is able to raise money, and also put on a very nice show for spectators and flyers alike. I do not believe that having a Tripoli section affiliated with SARA would hurt this ability. There is no reason that broadening our horizons will limit our abilities, that is a very backwards idea. And I would like to remind everyone that our field is level 3 capable, we simply must keep flights under our normal waiver and clear a launch site to the east of our normal flight line to allow for required safe distances.
The Tripoli/NAR joint affiliation is an idea that is in need of some serious consideration, as of now, on this forum, there are 4 people in support of this idea, and one against. Last time I checked this club was a democracy. Please, everyone remember that this club belongs to all of its members, so make your opinions known to our SARA board members as we continue to pursue this idea.
Jacob Dennis |
Nothing is ever perfect until it has been upscaled.
vnom37@gmail.com |
Edited by - JacobD on 04/04/2005 22:48:32 |
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EBurch
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 08:02:40
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I encourage all members to read the insurance information provided by each of the rocketry organizations. They can be found at http://www.tripoli.org/documents/insurance.shtml for Tripoli and at http://www.nar.org/insurancefaq.html for NAR. They have many similarities in that they cover the rocketry activities of members only so NAR insurance doesn't cover Tripoli only members and Tripoli insurance doesn't cover NAR only members. They both have deductibles and cover bystanders and property damaged by the activities of a covered member. They biggest difference is that Tripoli insurance covers you before the liability of your homeowner's policy while NAR insurance picks up after exhausting your homeowner's policy.
There are a number of dual-affiliation clubs and I have not heard of a single instance where the insurance was an issue.
Eric |
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Steve L.
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 08:28:31
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Gentlemen,
I do not understand why you have not formed a Tripoli prefecture of your own in Tucson. Please tell me why. None of you have stated any benefit that a joint section can offer versus a separate Tripoli prefecture and NAR section. Please tell me what. I've identified disadvantages, e.g. additional costs for SARA members (The $100.00 prefecture fee suggests that $3.00 to $5.00 to subsidize the prefecture per SARA member) that do not provide benefits to the majority of the membership. You've all expounded upon the wonders of branching into EX; this is not the primary focus of our membership.
Don't use this forum as a barometer of who is for and who is against the proposal. The problem with this forum is that it is unused by the bulk of the SARA membership. If you truly want to get the membership and SARA participants involved I'd suggest a debate on the topic at a meeting following a launch.
Stephen Lubliner |
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EBurch
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 09:20:55
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I don't believe the $100 is a big deal. Much like we started a fund for those interested in Hybrids we could have a fund for those interested in adding the Tripoli prefecture to SARA. The gain in membership over the next year will no doubt cover the costs for the following years.
Eric |
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Steve L.
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 10:19:03
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Eric,
I'm still looking for an answer for my questions.
"I do not understand why you have not formed a Tripoli prefecture of your own in Tucson. Please tell me why. None of you have stated any benefit that a joint section can offer versus a separate Tripoli prefecture and NAR section. Please tell me what. "
You suggest that we will see a membership increase if we are a joint section. I do not believe that is so. I'm willing to be proven wrong. Create a Tripoli prefecture independent of SARA and prove me wrong.
Stephen Lubliner |
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EBurch
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 15:49:46
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According to the folks at Tripoli there is no lower age limit for F and G certifications. That means if you have a sharp 12 year old who is a TRA Junior member they can certify under TRA rules with F and G motors, a certification not offered by NAR. In addition, without TRA affiliation no one from Tripoli can certify at a SARA launch. It is fine that we let TRA members launch rockets with us but it doesn't answer the need of TRA members to have a certifying Prefecture in Southern Arizona. SARA could provide an opportunity for anyone from either NAR or TRA to certify. Instead of asking why did you join "XXX" instead of "YYY" we can say - glad you did, how can we help.
Eric |
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JacobD
45 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 16:14:09
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| If SARA became a joint section new doors would be opened to our members. As it stands now if a member wished to learn about experimental propellants or the larger end of the hobby they are basically out of luck. For the majority of the SARA members the possibilities of EX seem like unreachable goals, and without any Tripoli prefecture in Tucson those goals will remain unreachable. With a joint section the members who are experienced with EX are available to the new comers. As most of us know the majority of time at any launch is spent talking and learning from one another. The joint section will allow this process of learning to continue. This information is a valuable resource to have available, and the small cost of the joint section is worth it. Why should we limit our possibilities to participate, or at the very least to learn? |
Nothing is ever perfect until it has been upscaled.
vnom37@gmail.com |
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Steve L.
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 16:59:23
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1) The NAR does not have a certification program for F and G model rocket motor certifications because one is not required. Modelers of any age who use these products in accordance with Consumer Product Safety Commission Regulations and NFPA 1122 guidelines are welcome to use them at a NAR launch.
2) An independent Tripoli prefecture can perform certifications without being a joint part of SARA at a SARA launch. Why is it so important that we have a joint section if Tripoli members want a venue to perform certifications? I've never questioned the point that the independent organizations can share equipment and the site. I want to maintain a organizational "firewall" between the organizations so insurance, FAA, and launch control responsibilities are clearly delineated.
3) All of the responses have emphasized the lack of EX in SARA as a reason to have a joint organization. First, this is a conflict with the NAR safety code. Secondly, there is not a huge demand, other than by the folks communicating in this forum, for EX in SARA. Finally, why can't a separate Tripoli prefecture satisfy this need.
4) I'm still waiting to hear an answer to my question why there has to be a joint section instead of an independent Tripoli prefecture. All of the "benefits" cited by the respondents can be accomplished by an independent Tripoli prefecture. If the benefits from local Tripoli activity are as great as the respondents indicate then the synergy between the NAR and Tripoli organizations should allow both to grow.
Steve Lubliner |
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Sahuaro2
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 19:24:52
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Steve:
Maybe this well help answer your question.
I have been competeting with model airplanes since 1980. During the last 25 years I have been involved with three airplane clubs. One club divided in the mid 1990’s when a new organization formed away from AMA. People were against the club supporting both AMA and a group associated with BMFA if I recall right. That organization has since gone under. Anyway it split the club and the membership. Finally we got together and associated with both. There were numerous advantages to this and the membership also grew.
If Tucson were to start a Tripoli club it would most likely take members away from SARA. If you look at the membership growth in the last five years I would bet it’s not going to cover loosing 30 to 50% of SARA’s membership.
Also you run into a possibility of the same thing happening to SARA that is happening to PAMPA. PAMPA is the premier C/L Precision Aerobatics Organization Special Interest Group for AMA. Although SARA is not facing a By-Laws restructure and going away from it’s intended purpose like PAMPA. It could also face the same destructive levels that PAMPA is facing if all sides do not come together and work on a joint effort.
If you want a hint of how bad it can be go to:
http://www.clstunt.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi and look at anything relating to PAMPA
There is a common ground here, SARA members are some of the most intelligent people I’ve ever been associated with. This could be a good thing if everyone works together to find the Positive’s that can come out of it.
I would highly suggest having a formal meeting at the field or at someone’s house after the launch on the 16th. Leave your emotions at the door, Sit down and talk this out. Put the Pro’s and Con’s on paper then look at them side by side.
EDIT: I am going to try to make the launch this month, if you call a meeting on this I well make sure I am at the launch.
Larry Foster
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Edited by - Sahuaro2 on 04/05/2005 19:29:50 |
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EBurch
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2005 : 07:59:41
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Larry, thanks for your comments. What you mention is exactly what I meant in the closing comments of my first post. Joint NAR/TRA affiliation makes the best use of limited resources and gives the club the best opportunity to grow by providing of pool of expertise and the most opportunities for all interested parties. As anyone involved with SARA knows we have plenty of work and not a lot of folks to do the work and splitting the club wouldn't help anyone. Joint affiliation won't remove anything that we currently provide. If you want to work on an A streamer duration rocket nobody is going to stop you, if you want to work on customized electronics nobody is going to stop you, etc.
It is important to realize that the major issue that we deal with is - membership. Every club today has to work at keeping/growing membership. There are too many things out there for folks to do and if we are going to keep rocketry growing in Southern Arizona we need synergy not separation. I happen to belong to NAR, TRA, and ARSA but I accept that not everybody wants to, and that is OK. You can join either TRA or NAR (or both) and what you choose shouldn't matter to SARA because everybody with a healthy interest in rocketry should be welcome.
Eric
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Edited by - EBurch on 04/06/2005 11:18:46 |
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BorderlineScientist
88 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2005 : 16:22:38
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Steve thanks for all your input.
I had been a NAR member off and on for some time. I changed to TRA after 9-11. I was not impressed with NARs milk-n-toast methods of dealing with ATFs’ thugs. I was also very surprised to see that thousands of people where making their own motors and not killing them selves contrary to NARs’ propaganda that this is done only by terrorist and idiots. I do agree that some people should not be allowed to do such things but that is the same argument used to try and keep me from defending my family and my life during the 10 minutes it takes the cops to show up.
I feel that we should be allowed to exercise our GOD GIVE RIGHT to choose, not be oppressed by those who think they are smarter then us. So this is as Steve put it so well "up to you SARA members" to choose.
First off Steve has two valid arguments.
1. It is $100 a year for the club to be part of TRA.
2. EX.
1. I will pay the $100 for every year I’m am part of and attend SARA if that is what it takes. If a simple $100 a year is going to kill SARA then the club has bigger problems then this discussion.
2. TRA does not allow EX and commercial motors to be used in the same 24 hour period. Also your field is too small for most of the bigger EX loads. EX launches if any will be on separate dates and if they are large, they will be at a different field.
So if you don’t like EX, just don’t go to the EX launches (this is where you use your freedom to choose). In my opinion I don’t see a large number of current SARA members doing EX. However I do see a lot of people that would love to swell the ranks of SARA to have some REAL adult entertainment for a change.
Now with you minor pionts.
We have been trying to make a new TRA prefecture here in south east Arizona for some time. It would be better if we could be part of SARA. If you buy in to NAR the prefecture will still happen just with out SARA.
This is one of the main reasons why SARA has a membership problem. When you are so closed to anything other then what NAR has to offer you can’t see the farther mountains for the fog. Don’t get me wrong, (I like a little fog now and then) it is great to give kids the opportunity to fly their little toy rockets this is a great way to get them interested in science but it is the adults that have the money.
If I were a college administrator or professor and a rocket club approached me to offer help and all they had was model rockets I wouldn’t just turn you down I would be laughing. What self-respecting professor is going to say to his Physics class “class today we are go to build a little alpha rocket so we will better understand the laws of motion”.
SSS and AHPRA have a program at ASU for students to build large commercial and experimental rockets and they do not have half the problems SARA has on membership and retention. Yes they have a larger populous but admit it, we could do a lot better then we are now.
As far as insurance, there are hundreds of clubs that are duel NAR/TRA Clubs and this has not been a problem for them. Here you should say if this is such a bad thing then why is it that so many clubs are doing so well. They saw the need that being just a “one association club” could not meet. And that is here in America we love our freedom and more than ever our freedom to choose, you need to be more then just a “one association club”. Everyone is doing it is not the point. The point is they are doing it WELL.
So SARA members you have the choice to get up and move on with technology or sit in the mud and play with your toys what’s it going to be…
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Jeff, Borderline Rocketry
"Logical reasoning brings you from a to b, imagination brings you
everywhere." "Great Spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." "If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Einstein, Albert |
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Jerry King
1 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2005 : 09:08:50
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I have been a member of both NAR and Tripoli for more than 10 years participating in both organzations. As in all groups, the character of the organizations depend upon the individuals involved. Everything that has been mentioned other than Tripoli Certifications and experimental propellant (by way of background, I have made my own propellant for more than a decade in the 1950s and early 1960s, so am not opposed to EX) can be done under NAR as well as TRA--it depends locally on the individuals, not the national parent organization. There is a role for both organizations and I see little need for any one group (locally or nationally) to try to be everything for every one.
The insurance coverage by NAR and Tripoli are quite different (I would refer people to the respective web sites for information rather than attempting to compare them here). Much is sometimes made of the fact that TRA insurance is primary and NAR is secondary, but that is true only for individuals, NAR insurance is primary for chartered sections and designated launch sites A large majority of our fliers are members of neither national organization.
There are several Clubs that have dual affliation and more that are really on paper two groups, but have mostly the same personnel in each group (sort of brother clubs). These groups often share equipment and launch sites, but most often run their launches independently, separately identified as TRA or NAR (other than the EX launches, they are often otherwise indistinquishable), which I consider is the most desirable way to go.
By having independent launches the issue of insurance underwriters claiming lack of jurisdiction-responsiblilty, using the excuse of it being a launch of the other affliation, is removed. Remember, insurance companies all have groups of attorneys whose major purpose is to find the means to protect the company from having losses. If there were to be a major incident, the insurance companies would scamble to protect their interest; the major organizations would be forced to support them in this endeavor as a successful large claim would result in vastly increased premiums or non-availability of future insurance. This situation would leave individuals involved in a legal battle (never have I heard of an inexpensive one) to try to retain their rights of coverage. I perceive this to be a major problem placing great potential liability on the CLUB, its OFFICERS, the LAUNCH PERSONNEL, and the LAND OWNERS.
I do not like the idea of ANY CLUB (even though many do) having direct dual affiliation (if popular opinion among groups of lemings is to run and jump off a cliff, all do not have to join them). Note that this is all a POTENTIAL problem: if there are never (not true) any accidents, nor any claims (not true), none of these considerations come to play and would in any event probably apply only to a serious (expensive, i.e. when the insurance is most needed) claim. I consider that prudence supports not accepting increased potential liability without great direct benefit. My assessment is the risks and potential problems outweigh the benefits.
I do not see how to support having DIRECT dual affliation given the situation as it exists.
Jerry |
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Benefits of Tripoli\NAR Joint Affiliation
