| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| EBurch |
Posted - 04/04/2005 : 13:22:51
When we look at the benefits of a joint NAR/TRA club I think there are a number of benefits that we do not currently offer by being a NAR only club. The first is certifications. If a Tripoli member wants to certify L1 or L2 they must travel to Phoenix because there are no TRA prefectures in Southern Arizona. Right now at SARA we can offer certifications in NAR only and while those certifications are recognized at a TRA launch you must be a member of NAR to be certified at a SARA launch. There are many who will not spend the money to belong to both NAR and TRA. I will not get into the politics of the two different organizations suffice it to say there are those who will never join Triploi and there are those who will never join NAR.
Second, we could offer junior memberships through Tripoli. Junior members of Tripoli can certify with level F and G motors. This is intended to keep interest in rocketry when teenagers usually transfer there interest to girls and cars. I will not argue the benefits of rocketry over girls and cars but it does keep the youth interested in rocketry when they have done all they wish to do with motors E and smaller.
All lot has been said about the EX or experimental part of Tripoli membership. Tripoli, unlike NAR does allow for the development of experimental motors by individuals level 2 or above under very specific guidelines. The more exotic (and risky) fuels like LOX\H2 are specifically prohibited and most of the work is done with either Ammonium Perchlorate/Aluminum or Potassium Nitrate/Sorbitol motors. The major advantage of EX is that we would be able to offer Colleges and Universities an additional avenue to enjoy amateur rocketry and I believe more would be inclined to participate if EX was an option. If you look online at some of the major projects launched by Universities they involved all aspects of engineering including making the motor. I have talked to the few in the club that are interested in EX and if SARA became a joint club you would probably see 3 to 4 EX launches a year and the location could but probably would not be TIMPA because of the low ceiling. We are looking into airspace to the Southeast that would serve as a location for EX and would satisfy the requirement that commercial and EX be separate activities.
Finally, members have indicated that it might be better to start a TRA prefecture as a separate entity. I believe that a joint club would be a more effective use of resources, both material and intellectual, and have seen it work at launches such as SSS in Phoenix. I have talked to Paul Holmes in Phoenix about the issues they have seen being a joint club and there were not any that he could think of that were significant. Their launches are still dominated by hobby level rockets, families attend events more then we have at SARA and they have only a few EX events a year. Insurance has not been an issue since the TRA insurance sits on top of all the insurance unlike NAR that sits under your homeowners policy.
Eric Burch
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| rdbones |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 14:23:22
Eric - Thanks for all of the effort that you have put into this.
You did a great job with is, and it shows.
Thanks
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| EBurch |
Posted - 09/19/2005 : 09:25:25
Well it's official. The by-laws were approved unanimously and SARA is now a joint NAR/TRA club! Thanks for all the help.
Eric |
| EBurch |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 10:19:05
I wanted to remind everybody of the SARA Club meeting on September 17th. The meeting will be at 5:00 pm at Lasertel, 7775 N. Casa Grande Hwy (On the Southbound frontage road between Cortaro and Ina). We will be voting on the proposed by-law changes that will complete the process of designating SARA a joint National Association of Rocketry / Tripoli Rocket Association club. Additionally, we will be discussing the proposal for SARA to sponsor NARAM and the options for the Spring Anniversary Launch. |
| EBurch |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 08:26:48
SARA has been granted TRA Prefecture #093! Hopefully we will have our first TRA certification flights at the August launch. We will be voting on the changes to the by-laws in late September or early October. All SARA members will receive a copy of the proposed changes in August.
Thanks again for all of the help!
Eric |
| EBurch |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 07:34:10
As many of you know SARA held a meeting on June 4th and voted in the affirmative to become a duel TRA/NAR Club. The paperwork for the Prefecture will go in this week and hopefully we can be ready to certifications to TRA members in July or August. I want to personally thank all those who participated in the discussion and vote. SARA will be a better club for it.
Thanks Again
Eric |
| EBurch |
Posted - 05/08/2005 : 20:25:47
SARA Member:
To facilitate a discussion and to vote on joint TRA/NAR chapter membership, the board has scheduled a members meeting for Saturday, June 4th, at 5:00 PM; the location will be at Lasertel, 7775 N. Casa Grande Hwy (On the Southbound frontage road between Cortaro and Ina). This date was chosen to allow members time to plan as well as avoid conflicts with NSL and ROC-Stock. It is the desire of the Board to hear your thoughts, questions, and concerns. SARA is a democracy and the board will act based upon the desires of the members. We will discuss any other topics of interest you have at the meeting.
The proposal is reviewed in detail below. We encourage you to read it carefully. Please email your Board members with anything that might help you better understand the proposal as well as any topics you would like to discuss at the meeting.
As most of you know some members of SARA are asking the Board to look into making SARA a joint National Association of Rocketry (NAR)/Tripoli Rocketry Association (TRA) club. The primary goal would be to reach the most number of rocketry enthusiasts in Southern Arizona and meet them where they are. As stated in the SARA by-laws SARA was created for the purpose of aiding and encouraging all those interested in rocketry, and to engage in other scientific, educational, or related activities. On our website it states “Our goal is to promote model and high power rocketry, educate ourselves and the public, and to have fun.” These members believe SARA would be better fulfilling its purposes if SARA became a joint affiliated association. Becoming a joint affiliation club will ensure SARA is listed on both the NAR and Tripoli club registry increasing awareness of SARA in the rocketry community.
It is not the purpose of SARA to advocate one rocketry organization over another. One can find plenty of opportunities to explore rocketry in either NAR or TRA. Our desire is to provide for members of the association a safe and consistent launch opportunity.
Currently SARA is unable to offer certifications to members of Tripoli. If a Tripoli member wants to certify L1 or L2 they must travel to Phoenix because there are no TRA prefectures in Southern Arizona. While NAR certifications are recognized at a TRA launch and vice versa, you must be a member of NAR to be certified at a SARA launch.
TRA and NAR approach the junior members (under 18) of rocketry differently. Tripoli offers junior certifications with level F and G motors as a stepping stone into High Power. There is no age restriction and the intent is to recognize the younger members of our hobby that have moved up from motors E and smaller. NAR doesn’t offer certifications for F and G since they are not considered High Power but does offers a supervised Level 1 certification for junior members 14 to 17. They must build the rocket and fly it successfully but are limited in what they can do with the motor. Again the goal is to recognize the effort made by younger members in the pursuit of rocketry. So it doesn’t matter if you have a clever 12 year old or an industrious 17 year old, each organization has something to offer.
All lot has been said about the EX or experimental part of Tripoli membership. Tripoli, unlike NAR does allow for the development of experimental motors by individuals level 2 or above under very specific guidelines. The more exotic (and risky) fuels like LOX/H2 are specifically prohibited and most of the work is done with either Ammonium Perchlorate/Aluminum or Potassium Nitrate/Sorbitol motors. The major advantage of EX is that we would be able to offer senior members an additional avenue to enjoy the hobby. In addition, many Colleges and Universities that want enjoy amateur rocketry would be inclined to participate if EX was an option. If you look online at some of the major projects launched by Universities they involved all aspects of engineering including making the motor. The details of EX have not been worked out with the city or TIMPA and will not be pursued until it is clear that a joint club will be approved by the membership. At that point, you might see 3 to 4 EX launches a year and the location could be either at TIMPA or in airspace to the Southeast that would offer a higher ceiling and a larger field allowing larger motors. Either way commercial and EX launches would be separate activities.
Of course, there are some negatives. The first is dues – as a joint club we would pay national dues to both NAR and TRA. This would cost the club $100 a year more than we are paying now. The dues for the first year has been offered to the club as a gift by several members who realize it was not included in this year’s budget. After the first year the club would be responsible for that amount. . Second, EX can be safe, but it does carry a higher probability of failure with a greater risk of injury or property damage and therefore deserves greater caution. Third, TRA is perceived by some as a predominantly High Power organization and an increase in HPR activity, especially larger rockets carries a greater risk as well.
The last thing to be discussed is insurance. While both TRA and NAR offer insurance at sanctioned launches there is concern that in the event of an accident there might be issues determining which insurance is primary. Therefore, each launch will be designated as either a TRA or a NAR sanctioned launch to avoid the possibility of confusion.
Please come to the members meeting and thank you.
Respectfully
Eric Burch
VP of SARA
Jay Dickhous President jdhous1@netscape.net
Eric Burch VP ewb@desertrockets.org
Doug Forester Sec/Treasurer dougf.att@worldnet.att.net
Ken Weaver Member-at-large vid2u@aol.com
Jerry King Senior Advisor 73667.61@compuserve.com
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| JacobD |
Posted - 04/12/2005 : 23:32:25
First of all I would like to thank Jerry for his very pleasant and friendly discussion of this topic.
I still however am in agreement with Eric. As a club SARA has not had any incidents in which we have even come close to needing to use the NAR insurance. I understand that this does not mean it is not possible. Even if there was an incident, what is to keep SARA from announcing the launches to be NAR or Tripoli prior to the start of the launch in order to avoid confusion over which insurance is covering the event?
In my eyes this is an issue that has the potential to split our club, but it truly does not need to. I believe that if we actually sat down and worked at it we could resolve any of these concerns, and still keep our numbers as they are.
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| EBurch |
Posted - 04/12/2005 : 13:35:38
An obvious question is - How often has a claim been made against either NAR or TRA insurance.
From the NAR Insurance FAQ -
25. How many claims have been filed to date? For what?
Since NAR first offered insurance in 1993, three claims for approximately $2,100 have been filed. All of these were for propetry damage claims.
From the TRA Insurance FAQ
7. Has there ever been a claim against Tripoli‘s insurance?
Yes. One of our members, along with a landowner, was named in a lawsuit involving a minor launching a model rocket at a launch event the member was sponsoring. The member in question had not obtained an insurance certificate for the landowner. The claim is currently pending. This is a good example of using extreme caution when assisting in launches involving non Tripoli members. Depending on the outcome of the claim, our member is out at least $2,500.
Both FAQs go on to make the same point - fly by the rules and the safety codes, fill out the forms correctly, and insurance is a non-issue.
Four claims total between both groups in over a decade of flying rockets - a risk possibly but hardly likely.
The real question to ask before creating 2 separate clubs is - Is it worth splitting our already lean manpower resources into two clubs or is it better to leverage the existing manpower and grow it as a single club? When we do Hobby Shop flyers and static displays is it going to be SARA, or is it going to be membership contest - NAR vs TRA?
Eric
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| Jerry King |
Posted - 04/12/2005 : 09:08:50
I have been a member of both NAR and Tripoli for more than 10 years participating in both organzations. As in all groups, the character of the organizations depend upon the individuals involved. Everything that has been mentioned other than Tripoli Certifications and experimental propellant (by way of background, I have made my own propellant for more than a decade in the 1950s and early 1960s, so am not opposed to EX) can be done under NAR as well as TRA--it depends locally on the individuals, not the national parent organization. There is a role for both organizations and I see little need for any one group (locally or nationally) to try to be everything for every one.
The insurance coverage by NAR and Tripoli are quite different (I would refer people to the respective web sites for information rather than attempting to compare them here). Much is sometimes made of the fact that TRA insurance is primary and NAR is secondary, but that is true only for individuals, NAR insurance is primary for chartered sections and designated launch sites A large majority of our fliers are members of neither national organization.
There are several Clubs that have dual affliation and more that are really on paper two groups, but have mostly the same personnel in each group (sort of brother clubs). These groups often share equipment and launch sites, but most often run their launches independently, separately identified as TRA or NAR (other than the EX launches, they are often otherwise indistinquishable), which I consider is the most desirable way to go.
By having independent launches the issue of insurance underwriters claiming lack of jurisdiction-responsiblilty, using the excuse of it being a launch of the other affliation, is removed. Remember, insurance companies all have groups of attorneys whose major purpose is to find the means to protect the company from having losses. If there were to be a major incident, the insurance companies would scamble to protect their interest; the major organizations would be forced to support them in this endeavor as a successful large claim would result in vastly increased premiums or non-availability of future insurance. This situation would leave individuals involved in a legal battle (never have I heard of an inexpensive one) to try to retain their rights of coverage. I perceive this to be a major problem placing great potential liability on the CLUB, its OFFICERS, the LAUNCH PERSONNEL, and the LAND OWNERS.
I do not like the idea of ANY CLUB (even though many do) having direct dual affiliation (if popular opinion among groups of lemings is to run and jump off a cliff, all do not have to join them). Note that this is all a POTENTIAL problem: if there are never (not true) any accidents, nor any claims (not true), none of these considerations come to play and would in any event probably apply only to a serious (expensive, i.e. when the insurance is most needed) claim. I consider that prudence supports not accepting increased potential liability without great direct benefit. My assessment is the risks and potential problems outweigh the benefits.
I do not see how to support having DIRECT dual affliation given the situation as it exists.
Jerry |
| BorderlineScientist |
Posted - 04/06/2005 : 16:22:38
Steve thanks for all your input.
I had been a NAR member off and on for some time. I changed to TRA after 9-11. I was not impressed with NARs milk-n-toast methods of dealing with ATFs’ thugs. I was also very surprised to see that thousands of people where making their own motors and not killing them selves contrary to NARs’ propaganda that this is done only by terrorist and idiots. I do agree that some people should not be allowed to do such things but that is the same argument used to try and keep me from defending my family and my life during the 10 minutes it takes the cops to show up.
I feel that we should be allowed to exercise our GOD GIVE RIGHT to choose, not be oppressed by those who think they are smarter then us. So this is as Steve put it so well "up to you SARA members" to choose.
First off Steve has two valid arguments.
1. It is $100 a year for the club to be part of TRA.
2. EX.
1. I will pay the $100 for every year I’m am part of and attend SARA if that is what it takes. If a simple $100 a year is going to kill SARA then the club has bigger problems then this discussion.
2. TRA does not allow EX and commercial motors to be used in the same 24 hour period. Also your field is too small for most of the bigger EX loads. EX launches if any will be on separate dates and if they are large, they will be at a different field.
So if you don’t like EX, just don’t go to the EX launches (this is where you use your freedom to choose). In my opinion I don’t see a large number of current SARA members doing EX. However I do see a lot of people that would love to swell the ranks of SARA to have some REAL adult entertainment for a change.
Now with you minor pionts.
We have been trying to make a new TRA prefecture here in south east Arizona for some time. It would be better if we could be part of SARA. If you buy in to NAR the prefecture will still happen just with out SARA.
This is one of the main reasons why SARA has a membership problem. When you are so closed to anything other then what NAR has to offer you can’t see the farther mountains for the fog. Don’t get me wrong, (I like a little fog now and then) it is great to give kids the opportunity to fly their little toy rockets this is a great way to get them interested in science but it is the adults that have the money.
If I were a college administrator or professor and a rocket club approached me to offer help and all they had was model rockets I wouldn’t just turn you down I would be laughing. What self-respecting professor is going to say to his Physics class “class today we are go to build a little alpha rocket so we will better understand the laws of motion”.
SSS and AHPRA have a program at ASU for students to build large commercial and experimental rockets and they do not have half the problems SARA has on membership and retention. Yes they have a larger populous but admit it, we could do a lot better then we are now.
As far as insurance, there are hundreds of clubs that are duel NAR/TRA Clubs and this has not been a problem for them. Here you should say if this is such a bad thing then why is it that so many clubs are doing so well. They saw the need that being just a “one association club” could not meet. And that is here in America we love our freedom and more than ever our freedom to choose, you need to be more then just a “one association club”. Everyone is doing it is not the point. The point is they are doing it WELL.
So SARA members you have the choice to get up and move on with technology or sit in the mud and play with your toys what’s it going to be…
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| EBurch |
Posted - 04/06/2005 : 07:59:41
Larry, thanks for your comments. What you mention is exactly what I meant in the closing comments of my first post. Joint NAR/TRA affiliation makes the best use of limited resources and gives the club the best opportunity to grow by providing of pool of expertise and the most opportunities for all interested parties. As anyone involved with SARA knows we have plenty of work and not a lot of folks to do the work and splitting the club wouldn't help anyone. Joint affiliation won't remove anything that we currently provide. If you want to work on an A streamer duration rocket nobody is going to stop you, if you want to work on customized electronics nobody is going to stop you, etc.
It is important to realize that the major issue that we deal with is - membership. Every club today has to work at keeping/growing membership. There are too many things out there for folks to do and if we are going to keep rocketry growing in Southern Arizona we need synergy not separation. I happen to belong to NAR, TRA, and ARSA but I accept that not everybody wants to, and that is OK. You can join either TRA or NAR (or both) and what you choose shouldn't matter to SARA because everybody with a healthy interest in rocketry should be welcome.
Eric
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| Sahuaro2 |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 19:24:52
Steve:
Maybe this well help answer your question.
I have been competeting with model airplanes since 1980. During the last 25 years I have been involved with three airplane clubs. One club divided in the mid 1990’s when a new organization formed away from AMA. People were against the club supporting both AMA and a group associated with BMFA if I recall right. That organization has since gone under. Anyway it split the club and the membership. Finally we got together and associated with both. There were numerous advantages to this and the membership also grew.
If Tucson were to start a Tripoli club it would most likely take members away from SARA. If you look at the membership growth in the last five years I would bet it’s not going to cover loosing 30 to 50% of SARA’s membership.
Also you run into a possibility of the same thing happening to SARA that is happening to PAMPA. PAMPA is the premier C/L Precision Aerobatics Organization Special Interest Group for AMA. Although SARA is not facing a By-Laws restructure and going away from it’s intended purpose like PAMPA. It could also face the same destructive levels that PAMPA is facing if all sides do not come together and work on a joint effort.
If you want a hint of how bad it can be go to:
http://www.clstunt.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi and look at anything relating to PAMPA
There is a common ground here, SARA members are some of the most intelligent people I’ve ever been associated with. This could be a good thing if everyone works together to find the Positive’s that can come out of it.
I would highly suggest having a formal meeting at the field or at someone’s house after the launch on the 16th. Leave your emotions at the door, Sit down and talk this out. Put the Pro’s and Con’s on paper then look at them side by side.
EDIT: I am going to try to make the launch this month, if you call a meeting on this I well make sure I am at the launch.
Larry Foster
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| Steve L. |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 16:59:23
1) The NAR does not have a certification program for F and G model rocket motor certifications because one is not required. Modelers of any age who use these products in accordance with Consumer Product Safety Commission Regulations and NFPA 1122 guidelines are welcome to use them at a NAR launch.
2) An independent Tripoli prefecture can perform certifications without being a joint part of SARA at a SARA launch. Why is it so important that we have a joint section if Tripoli members want a venue to perform certifications? I've never questioned the point that the independent organizations can share equipment and the site. I want to maintain a organizational "firewall" between the organizations so insurance, FAA, and launch control responsibilities are clearly delineated.
3) All of the responses have emphasized the lack of EX in SARA as a reason to have a joint organization. First, this is a conflict with the NAR safety code. Secondly, there is not a huge demand, other than by the folks communicating in this forum, for EX in SARA. Finally, why can't a separate Tripoli prefecture satisfy this need.
4) I'm still waiting to hear an answer to my question why there has to be a joint section instead of an independent Tripoli prefecture. All of the "benefits" cited by the respondents can be accomplished by an independent Tripoli prefecture. If the benefits from local Tripoli activity are as great as the respondents indicate then the synergy between the NAR and Tripoli organizations should allow both to grow.
Steve Lubliner |
| JacobD |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 16:14:09
If SARA became a joint section new doors would be opened to our members. As it stands now if a member wished to learn about experimental propellants or the larger end of the hobby they are basically out of luck. For the majority of the SARA members the possibilities of EX seem like unreachable goals, and without any Tripoli prefecture in Tucson those goals will remain unreachable. With a joint section the members who are experienced with EX are available to the new comers. As most of us know the majority of time at any launch is spent talking and learning from one another. The joint section will allow this process of learning to continue. This information is a valuable resource to have available, and the small cost of the joint section is worth it. Why should we limit our possibilities to participate, or at the very least to learn? |
| EBurch |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 15:49:46
According to the folks at Tripoli there is no lower age limit for F and G certifications. That means if you have a sharp 12 year old who is a TRA Junior member they can certify under TRA rules with F and G motors, a certification not offered by NAR. In addition, without TRA affiliation no one from Tripoli can certify at a SARA launch. It is fine that we let TRA members launch rockets with us but it doesn't answer the need of TRA members to have a certifying Prefecture in Southern Arizona. SARA could provide an opportunity for anyone from either NAR or TRA to certify. Instead of asking why did you join "XXX" instead of "YYY" we can say - glad you did, how can we help.
Eric |
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